Ernie Q on casing, pressing, and blending

Ozark Wizard

Well-known member
Old Ted Award Winner
Heyyy, what did I say to deserve such a short non-answer? LOL :LOL: ... I apologize for any mis-wording in my previous question, allow me to elaborate.

Stoving vs. Toasting..... first my disclaimer, this is my opinion and understanding of what the two different processes mean, and it's a pipe smoking patissier's point of view who's done very little tobacco-specific research, so I could be miles off. Thank goodness for my mastery of food science :giggle:...

Stoving would be the process of slowly cooking the leaf at a low temperature to develop more character from the sugars that are present.
Toasting would be the brief heating (high or low heat) of the leaf to redistribute the tasty oils without developing the sugars at all.

Virginia's have a high (er) sugar content, and they benefit from the long stoving process where that sugar is cooked to a more complex and flavorful state. The Burley, however, would not benefit from a long "sugar cooking" process, as they have little to no sugar present. Burley would see a change, as would almost any vegetative produce, from a brief, controlled heating and redistributing of the essential and volatile oils that make up its flavor profile. Maybe the only way to enhance the burley, short of an infusion or addition. Again, these are all my amateur deductions and opinions, and i could be mistaken.

Now... the question :sneaky: .... Couldn't I "toast" the burley in the pressure cooker the same way I "stove" my virginia's?

I'm learning this stuff, but there are a few things i absolutely know... Your oven doesn't run at the temperature you think it does... i've seen as great as a 30 degree difference in either direction from the intended temperature on several home ovens. Unless you put a thermometer in your oven and actually test and calibrate it regularly, you're rolling the dice if you're trying to hit 250* exactly... you could be scorching them up closer to the 300 mark, or not doing anything at 210*. So, the main reason for my curiosity is to have absolute control over the temperature and moisture... Pressure cooking at 15psi will bring the temperature in your cooker to EXACTLY 250*F every single time... the magic number. As long as i can maintain a constant moisture within my jars (i can) I don't need to worry about the temperature or moisture at all. No worries about scorching or desiccating the leaf. Bring the pressure cooker to 15 psi, set a 15 minute timer... done.

Don't answer that question, I've just convinced myself to give it a whirl LOL... I'm convinced it could be done, with ease. .... I'll do some experimentation and report back with my findings.
:popc:
 

AceFour

Well-known member
Heyyy, what did I say to deserve such a short non-answer? LOL :LOL: ... I apologize for any mis-wording in my previous question, allow me to elaborate.

Stoving vs. Toasting..... first my disclaimer, this is my opinion and understanding of what the two different processes mean, and it's a pipe smoking patissier's point of view who's done very little tobacco-specific research, so I could be miles off. Thank goodness for my mastery of food science :giggle:...

Stoving would be the process of slowly cooking the leaf at a low temperature to develop more character from the sugars that are present.
Toasting would be the brief heating (high or low heat) of the leaf to redistribute the tasty oils without developing the sugars at all.

Virginia's have a high (er) sugar content, and they benefit from the long stoving process where that sugar is cooked to a more complex and flavorful state. The Burley, however, would not benefit from a long "sugar cooking" process, as they have little to no sugar present. Burley would see a change, as would almost any vegetative produce, from a brief, controlled heating and redistributing of the essential and volatile oils that make up its flavor profile. Maybe the only way to enhance the burley, short of an infusion or addition. Again, these are all my amateur deductions and opinions, and i could be mistaken.

Now... the question :sneaky: .... Couldn't I "toast" the burley in the pressure cooker the same way I "stove" my virginia's?

I'm learning this stuff, but there are a few things i absolutely know... Your oven doesn't run at the temperature you think it does... i've seen as great as a 30 degree difference in either direction from the intended temperature on several home ovens. Unless you put a thermometer in your oven and actually test and calibrate it regularly, you're rolling the dice if you're trying to hit 250* exactly... you could be scorching them up closer to the 300 mark, or not doing anything at 210*. So, the main reason for my curiosity is to have absolute control over the temperature and moisture... Pressure cooking at 15psi will bring the temperature in your cooker to EXACTLY 250*F every single time... the magic number. As long as i can maintain a constant moisture within my jars (i can) I don't need to worry about the temperature or moisture at all. No worries about scorching or desiccating the leaf. Bring the pressure cooker to 15 psi, set a 15 minute timer... done.

Don't answer that question, I've just convinced myself to give it a whirl LOL... I'm convinced it could be done, with ease. .... I'll do some experimentation and report back with my findings.
I love science! Eagerly awaiting your results!
 

Lee D

^ not me
Patron
I'm learning this stuff, but there are a few things i absolutely know... Your oven doesn't run at the temperature you think it does...
Actually, it does. One oven thermometer lives in the oven, and another lives in a drawer to check the first one against on occasion. Calibrating the oven control, to within 10 degrees F of indicated, over the entire temp range of the oven, was easy on the last two ovens I've owned. At the most-used temps, it's within 5* F.
 
Actually, it does. One oven thermometer lives in the oven, and another lives in a drawer to check the first one against on occasion. Calibrating the oven control, to within 10 degrees F of indicated, over the entire temp range of the oven, was easy on the last two ovens I've owned. At the most-used temps, it's within 5* F.

That's fantastic! Most people don't even know you can do that, making you the exception not the rule 😁😏
 
A pressure cooker at 15psi in Denver, CO gives 240F, not 250F.

Interesting, I wasn't expecting a response of that nature... but in any case, I'd be willing to wager that you would get different numbers using a pressure cooker at the Dead Sea, too... In the spirit of succinctness and non-knitpickiness, and because there's such a thing as useless information, I WILL be excluding all of the random "what if" permeatations from my explanations. I feel that if I were to include all factors of every dynamic situation possible there simply wouldn't be room here to put it, or the time to pen it... If you are among the 6% of hoomans that live above a mile in altitude, any adjustments to your cooking method would pretty well be ingrained in your technique and understanding of cooking at altitude... that's an assumption I'm willing to make. I'll also assume that none of us are here to be know-it-alls or petty bickerers. So, I thank you Mr. Derangedhermit for keeping me honest, and I look forward to any future positive, insightful, and/or helpful input from you and the bunch. 😊🤘

Ps... please don't come back with "it's actually 6.33%of humans that live at alti...." 🤣🤣🤣🤣😆🤣
 
"Caramelization starts above 212F, so at normal pressure you have to drive enough water out to let the tobacco heat well beyond 212F for caramelization to occur. I don't know if 250F in a pressure cooker allows caramelization in the presence of plenty of water."

Heyooo, forgot to address this... the technique that I use to stove my whole leaf has a moisture barrier between the inside of the jar and the steamy interior of the pressure cooker. There is no moisture reaching the tobacco that hasn't come from the tobacco. No steam exchange. Now, because there's a moisture barrier, but not a pressure barrier between the two, the inside of the jars reach the same temp and pressure as the inside of the pressure cooker. BTW, steam can be heated hundreds of degrees above the lowly boiling temp of 212*F. The pressure cooker just offers a relatively worry free process of hitting the right temp and holding it. As for the sugar, I'm not looking for caramel or caramelization... caramel occurs upward of 300*F, and whether light or dark in color, it is varying degrees of burnt sugar. I don't want that. One could cook sugar, at sea level 😏, for hours at 250*F and it'll never become caramel. What will start to happen at those temps, with almost any organic animal or plant material and especially for prolonged periods of time, is the malliard reaction... and malliard means flavor, both for food and tobacco. Mucho flavor, por favor! 😁🤘
 
I'm sorry but how would one be certain of the internal temperature and pressure inside a pressure cooker? Am I missing something and this is actually obvious?

It's not obvious, buddy... I trust science to determine that stuff... pressure, volume, temperature relationships can all be figured out with known equations, if you're so inclined to do a little physics 😁... otherwise, trust that it is a scientifically derived known temperature and common knowledge only among pressure cooking chefs and preserve canners. 😊🤘
 

Ernie Q

Well-known member
Sales
Patron
Heyyy, what did I say to deserve such a short non-answer? LOL :LOL: ... I apologize for any mis-wording in my previous question, allow me to elaborate.

Stoving vs. Toasting..... first my disclaimer, this is my opinion and understanding of what the two different processes mean, and it's a pipe smoking patissier's point of view who's done very little tobacco-specific research, so I could be miles off. Thank goodness for my mastery of food science :giggle:...

Stoving would be the process of slowly cooking the leaf at a low temperature to develop more character from the sugars that are present.
Toasting would be the brief heating (high or low heat) of the leaf to redistribute the tasty oils without developing the sugars at all.

Virginia's have a high (er) sugar content, and they benefit from the long stoving process where that sugar is cooked to a more complex and flavorful state. The Burley, however, would not benefit from a long "sugar cooking" process, as they have little to no sugar present. Burley would see a change, as would almost any vegetative produce, from a brief, controlled heating and redistributing of the essential and volatile oils that make up its flavor profile. Maybe the only way to enhance the burley, short of an infusion or addition. Again, these are all my amateur deductions and opinions, and i could be mistaken.

Now... the question :sneaky: .... Couldn't I "toast" the burley in the pressure cooker the same way I "stove" my virginia's?

I'm learning this stuff, but there are a few things i absolutely know... Your oven doesn't run at the temperature you think it does... i've seen as great as a 30 degree difference in either direction from the intended temperature on several home ovens. Unless you put a thermometer in your oven and actually test and calibrate it regularly, you're rolling the dice if you're trying to hit 250* exactly... you could be scorching them up closer to the 300 mark, or not doing anything at 210*. So, the main reason for my curiosity is to have absolute control over the temperature and moisture... Pressure cooking at 15psi will bring the temperature in your cooker to EXACTLY 250*F every single time... the magic number. As long as i can maintain a constant moisture within my jars (i can) I don't need to worry about the temperature or moisture at all. No worries about scorching or desiccating the leaf. Bring the pressure cooker to 15 psi, set a 15 minute timer... done.

Don't answer that question, I've just convinced myself to give it a whirl LOL... I'm convinced it could be done, with ease. .... I'll do some experimentation and report back with my findings.
Well now that i actually have a free moment I can elaborate. What we use is an oven with a thermistor attached. Well we really don’t use it much at all because as I mentioned I’m happy with the Stoved/toasted stuff that’s available to us. I have Stoved Orientals before though for special blends.
When I was at Cornell & Diego in 2007 Vraig had a special way of Stoving “in tin”. He would tin the tobacco he intended on stoving and stick it in a precisely controlled heater for an hour. I’m really not extremely familiar with stoving processes traditionally used, but I know they require the tobacco to be contained within an enclosure so Craig’s old method...and yours...are what I would do. Now before you toast any burley you do (and I highly suggest it) have the option of adding sugars/acids to the leaf via casings. You will not be able to take the “curse” of burley without sugars. Inverted is the key here. You want to use Molasses/treacle/honey etc combined with equal amounts by weight of a carrier such as Bourbon or Rum, an acid to bring the Ph of the air cured burley down (I use Vinegar) and water to get the proper viscosity. Spray that on heated leaf first and let it soak for 24 hours so it really gets into the leaf.
Now to toast, you want to to get that perfect temp (305 I THINK) and you don’t want the tobacco contained. You want it laid on a sheet. Moist. If you het the proper temp, you’ll get an mildly acrid smell while it’s cooking.that’s all the bad stuff off gassing. Toasting mellows the leaf, intensifies the flavor and carmelizes any sugar you put in. Of course you could just toast the leaf without casing it if you don’t want that carmelized effect, bit at some point you are going to need to add sugars to burley to tame the curse. Otherwise halfway down the bowl it’ll be like smoking a rope from the back of a cow barn.
 

Lee D

^ not me
Patron
I'm sorry but how would one be certain of the internal temperature and pressure inside a pressure cooker? Am I missing something and this is actually obvious?
50 years ago, in my Grandmother's kitchen, it was done by having a small carefully-chosen-size hole in the (clamp-on) lid, and a simple weight of appropriate size that sat over the hole to keep the pressure in until it built up the desired amount, and would then vent the excess off. That controlled the maximum amount of pressure inside the pot relative to the pressure outside the pot. When water is heated, it boils (makes steam) at a certain temperature, and that boiling temperature is dependent on the air pressure. At 15 psi above sea level air pressure, it boils at about 250F. So with the right weight on the hole in the lid, you get +15 psi in the pot, and you know that is 250F. Once water is boiling, it doesn't get hotter; it stays at the boiling temp until the liquid is gone.

Dear Grandmother blew up a few pressure cookers, and it makes quite an impression when one goes off, so it may be the U.S. government has insisted on less hazardous ways to manage the pressure today. But even today it can be circumvented - I just looked up pressure cooker bomb on Wikipedia.
 

Mrm1775

Well-known member
Sales
I've got several lbs of yellow Virginia whole leaf and a few lbs of Canadian yellow, 4-5 lbs of double bright along with a few lbs of VA that I grew.
The Canadian yellow is pretty sweet and some really nice quality leaf, it came from a delicious crop (2018 I believe).

I think tomorrow I will start removing stems, follow @Ernie Q suggestions and see what kinda plug I can make. I'll add a touch of apple cider vinegar.
Germain's swears their brown flake is nothing but pressed yellow.

🤞
 

Ozark Wizard

Well-known member
Old Ted Award Winner
I've got several lbs of yellow Virginia whole leaf and a few lbs of Canadian yellow, 4-5 lbs of double bright along with a few lbs of VA that I grew.
The Canadian yellow is pretty sweet and some really nice quality leaf, it came from a delicious crop (2018 I believe).

I think tomorrow I will start removing stems, follow @Ernie Q suggestions and see what kinda plug I can make. I'll add a touch of apple cider vinegar.
Germain's swears their brown flake is nothing but pressed yellow.

🤞
:thumb-yello:
 

cossar

Well-known member
I've got several lbs of yellow Virginia whole leaf and a few lbs of Canadian yellow, 4-5 lbs of double bright along with a few lbs of VA that I grew.
The Canadian yellow is pretty sweet and some really nice quality leaf, it came from a delicious crop (2018 I believe).

I think tomorrow I will start removing stems, follow @Ernie Q suggestions and see what kinda plug I can make. I'll add a touch of apple cider vinegar.
Germain's swears their brown flake is nothing but pressed yellow.

🤞
I'm really curious to hear your results.
 

Mrm1775

Well-known member
Sales
I'm really curious to hear your results.
I am too !! I have a almost a lb of Virginia that I grew and sun-cured. It is very smooth, slightly sweet and I find a slight nutty flavor. It is mostly bright leaf with a little red mixed in.
I've already smoked most of the sun-cured red.
I'm really looking forward to seeing how a plug of it turns out.
 

Mrm1775

Well-known member
Sales
It has a little sharpness to it, but it has a really nice sweet va flavor.
Its totally smokeable, but I'm gonna let it have a short jar nap and sample again.

I have another plug in the press with the addition of some double bright va (an extended flue cure that is less sweet) due out on Thursday.